Windows 64bit etc

Hi Brian

Thanks for the example but...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:05:20 +0900, Brian Evans [NDX]
<bevanson@rogers.com> wrote:

> Large data structures and memory mapped files along with what should
> be some performance increase from having more and wider registers
> for basic operations.

Please don't misunderstand me here, I am not having a go at you or others
here, but just how is this going to be an improvement in the real world?
More and wider registers are STILL going to have to shove THIS WIDER data
throught the *narrow* openings of the IDE, Firewire and USB access etc.

If the disk I/O was the same width of the new ubeaut 64 bit registers then
that could be a good thing, and USB data is STILL going to go down the
line SERIALLY.

> An example would be a 30 gigabyte file accessed using the memory
> mapped file API calls. In your program you access it just like
> a chunk of memory and the OS behind the scenes does the reads
> and writes much like it does for virtual memory.

I must be missing soemthing here? I don't see how this is really THAT much
different to what happens currently?

MUCH of the time windows is reading from VM anyway. Windows MM is a very
poor implementation as it is - hopefully the Vista MM is new and does not
have problems handling its own memory!

What does accessing my program "like a chunk of memory" do for me that I
don't have now? If the OS behind the scenes does the reads and writes,
then why don't I just do the reads and writes as I do now and let the OS
do the reads and write for me (as it currently does behind the scenes)?

Until we *eventually* have 32gb ram as standard and hopefully Windows will
still only need its 2gb, I can't see the memory mapped file benefits to
which you refer.

I am not "trying to be smart here", I am really interested in the valid
need or use of 64bits now? I know we have to start somewhere, but I think
the new Vista (or probably any) 64bit OS is probably exceeeding MOST users
needs and most users hardware.

It would be GREAT to see a client and say "Hey, you need Windows Vista
because ALL your apps will run TWICE as fast", not that that is *really*
impportant for too many people, but as we know that does not happen in the
*real world*.

64bit pcs are NOT going to download emails or transfer files any faster
than the user's ADSL 2 allows and I don't see Windows' "pre-emptive" (HA!)
multi-tasking working any better than it does now, though I WOULDlike to
be proved wrong

--
Regards

Peter

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Outgoing emails scanned by Trendmicro Internet Security

Hi Peter,

This is very much the same argument people had when moving from 16bit to 32bit
and, for the most part, the same arguments stand.

"Peter Sanders" <peter@infopos.com.au> wrote in message
newsp.to570f1piezccv@infopos-main...
| Hi Brian
|
| Thanks for the example but...
|
| On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:05:20 +0900, Brian Evans [NDX]
| <bevanson@rogers.com> wrote:
|
| > Large data structures and memory mapped files along with what should
| > be some performance increase from having more and wider registers
| > for basic operations.
|
| Please don't misunderstand me here, I am not having a go at you or others
| here, but just how is this going to be an improvement in the real world?
| More and wider registers are STILL going to have to shove THIS WIDER data
| throught the *narrow* openings of the IDE, Firewire and USB access etc.
|
| If the disk I/O was the same width of the new ubeaut 64 bit registers then
| that could be a good thing, and USB data is STILL going to go down the
| line SERIALLY.

As I understand it...

We are able to play with registers/addresses larger than 32bit in a 32bit
environment (e.g. adding 2 large numbers >32bits in length) now. This is due to
some fancy juggling of multiple 32bit addresses to compensate. This extra
juggling requires additional CPU time compared to handling registers <=32bit
due to the additional instructions each time the juggling is performed. 64bit
addressing/CPUs/PCs allows you to handle larger registers UP TO 64bits with
less juggling, increasing performance (to a point) and efficiency.

That point is physical bottlenecks. As you've described, there are potential
bottlenecks in serial transmission speeds since they are now pushing 64bit data
instead of 32bit data. That is why manufacturers are constantly trying to boost
speeds to compensate. If you think you have a PC with no specific bottlenecks
then either you're lying to yourself or you're whole PC is slow 'evenly' <g>.

| > An example would be a 30 gigabyte file accessed using the memory
| > mapped file API calls. In your program you access it just like
| > a chunk of memory and the OS behind the scenes does the reads
| > and writes much like it does for virtual memory.
|
| I must be missing soemthing here? I don't see how this is really THAT much
| different to what happens currently?
|
| MUCH of the time windows is reading from VM anyway. Windows MM is a very
| poor implementation as it is - hopefully the Vista MM is new and does not
| have problems handling its own memory!
|
| What does accessing my program "like a chunk of memory" do for me that I
| don't have now? If the OS behind the scenes does the reads and writes,
| then why don't I just do the reads and writes as I do now and let the OS
| do the reads and write for me (as it currently does behind the scenes)?
|
| Until we *eventually* have 32gb ram as standard and hopefully Windows will
| still only need its 2gb, I can't see the memory mapped file benefits to
| which you refer.
|
| I am not "trying to be smart here", I am really interested in the valid
| need or use of 64bits now? I know we have to start somewhere, but I think
| the new Vista (or probably any) 64bit OS is probably exceeeding MOST users
| needs and most users hardware.

True. The need RIGHT NOW for 64bits isn't especially high for the office
environment. However, this need is quickly changing depending on other PC
needs. As a gamer, I can't wait to get my hands on a 64bit PC so I can play
Supreme Commander as it's supposed to be played <bg>. Audio/Video/Graphic
editors/designers will like the larger processing capabilities a 64bit PC
offers (with the right software). 3D modellers/Game designers will love the
increased precision they will be able to utilize with 64bit floating point
numbers.

|
| It would be GREAT to see a client and say "Hey, you need Windows Vista
| because ALL your apps will run TWICE as fast", not that that is *really*
| impportant for too many people, but as we know that does not happen in the
| *real world*.
|
| 64bit pcs are NOT going to download emails or transfer files any faster
| than the user's ADSL 2 allows and I don't see Windows' "pre-emptive" (HA!)
| multi-tasking working any better than it does now, though I WOULDlike to
| be proved wrong

You're not entirely wrong but to say 64bit tech doesn't provide any benefits
would be. Just give it time

Kind regards,
William
(Newcastle, Australia, GMT+10)